Ladedah

livelaughawesome asked: Wow, you're really making me think and thank you so much for that!I like that we can have a super respectful conversation and dialogue about this! From reading more on STFUbiphobia it seems like bisexuality and pansexuality, in terms of perspectives from the bisexual community, are simply just different labels that have the same or similar definitions. Similar to the selfidentifying terms of "lesbian" and "dyke" and "gay woman" that I hear from different members of the lesbian community (cont'd)

I guess that my dialogue about definitions does imply that definitions are useless or something, but I see definitions as a personal or group thing of: “when i say this word, it’s what i mean” which, once again, I understand can seem kind of ridiculous in terms of trying to educate people. //

I definitely understand now how that definition reinforced negative attitudes, but in my own personal opinion (and not the opinion of the organization I run), I think it’s ridiculous that being attracted to binary genders is thought of as binarist or trans*phobic. Gay men being attracted to only men isn’t thought of as sexist. We can’t help who we are attracted to, and I think it’s a little odd to tell somebody who is only attracted to binary genders that they are binarist. But maybe that’s only something that I think, idk.

The thing that you said about looking to define for others really makes sense to me, and I think that that difference (defining for yourself vs. defining for others) is something that I didn’t really notice before, so it’s really cool and helpful that you helped me think about that. I also really like this, and it’s making me think: “It’s too easy for a definition to become a slur, when negative implications are accepted as truth.” Basically, I just want to thank you so much for talking with me about this! We’ll definitely be talking about changing our bisexual definition at our next meeting.

Bold emphasis is mine because SERIOUSLY READ THOSE FUCKING WORDS. THAT THAT THAT SO MUCH.

…Now that I’m done spazzing out, I want to thank you as well for being so thoughtful and respectful, as well as specifically going and educating yourself when our discussion made you pause and examine your thought processes. I mean seriously, that is an extraordinary trait, and you are incredible. I never expected to talk to someone about this and have such a positive, productive response.

Seriously, it means so much to me, and I’m sure to other bisexuals who might read this, to encounter someone who really is seeking to think about the way they speak on equal rights within the community. It is so frustrating how often I encounter members of the queer community who are careless or callous to bisexual concerns for visibility or stigma.

I deeply appreciate the consideration you’ve shown throughout this discussion. Seriously. Like, more than I can really express.

livelaughawesome asked: I want to reply to your ask that you replied to, but I'm worried my ask limit will run out, so if it does, please just wait until there are no more "(cont'd)". // This dialogue is seriously helping me understand this, so thank you so much! But it's totally not your responsibility to educate me, so please stop if you don't to!

Thank you so much for answering my ask and acknowledging that I am trying to be helpful! The idea you discussed about “it’s not uncommon for bisexuals prefer different things from male-identified individuals than they do from female-identified individuals” is actually the definition I was going to use originally for our posters, because when I was bisexual (in terms of sexuality vs. affectionality, I still am bisexual/homoromantic) that’s how I felt, but I was told by another bisexual person that that was not how they felt about it, and that they simply understood “bi” as implying binary and were attracted to binary people. I know the whole “well my (blank) friend said it was okay so it is” is a fucked up “excuse” and I’m not trying to excuse anything, more so just explain why.

I’ll definitely keep in mind your definition, and use it to further explain the complexity of bisexuality. “As you understand it” most definitely does not explain “how it is”, but we strongly believe that nobody’s definition is how it is for everybody, and so our definitions are ours, and similarly to how my definition for my own identity may not coincide with another lesbians definition of their identity will not coincide, our definition of bisexuality will not coincide with everybody else’s definition of bisexuality, and your definition of bisexuality will not coincide with other definitions of bisexuality.

Sexuality is so complex, and that’s exactly why we would never define things as “fact”, because there is no simple, secure, real definition for everybody who picks that label to identify themselves. And that’s why we included the “Despite fulfilling these labels… etc.” disclaimer up top. To make sure that people understand that our definitions are not for everybody, and that’s normal. //

On a more personal level, I really appreciate hearing from you that bisexual people can be attracted to genderqueer people, like me, because I’ve had other bisexual people tell me that they’re not attracted to me because I don’t identify as exclusively female or exclusively male. I really appreciate having this dialogue with you, because it’s allowing me and the organization I run to be more inclusive to all people of all queer identities. (I’m done! Thank you!)

First, I really appreciate how seriously you’re taking my responses. I often feel like my voice is ignored in the queer community because I’m a bisexual, and especially as a bisexual with a cismale fiance. There is a wealth of misinformation out there about bisexuality, and the majority of it is negative and just reinforces biphobic attitudes.

In response to what you say about definitions and the individuality of them — I agree in one sense, and disagree in the other. In the sense that definitions, for an individual, may vary from a textbook definition and still be an appropriate label for that person, I agree. In the sense that, due to that reason, definitions are… what? Useless? I’m not sure what you were saying there, to be honest.

In any case, the problem I had with the original definition was not that it was wrong for me personally (though it is), but rather that it reinforced negative attitudes. When we define ourselves, we acknowledge the isolated nature of that label, certainly. But when looking to define others, or define for others in an educational sense, it is essential to recognize the implications in our wording. 

Sexuality is definitely complex, and on an individual basis can be fluid or static or emotion-based or physically-based or whatever. But when it comes to labels — a lot of people need them. And it’s not wrong to want to know what to call yourself, or other people in relation to yourself. It’s for that reason that it’s important that definitions be stripped of negative implications or flat out assertions. It’s too easy for a definition to become a slur, when negative implications are accepted as truth. 

On a more personal level, I am personally genderqueer as well, though I took a longer time coming to terms with that than I did my bisexuality. Genderqueer itself is also a spectrum, and the definition you put up demonstrates that nicely. I only pitch such a fuss because to me, bisexuality is no different. The accuracy is in the passive acknowledgement of variation.

Also… I’m sorry for the behavior of other bisexuals. I promise you, we are not all like that.

livelaughawesome asked: Hey there! I just wanted to let you know the reason behind the way that the organization I run understands bisexuality the way that it was defined. We added the "any gender" because all of our other definitions (gay, lesbian, etc) included what gender a person was (gay: male-identified, lesbian: female-identified, etc.). We understand bisexuality and pansexuality as two cohesive sexualities/identities where one implies binary (BIsexual) and one implies all (PANsexual) (cont'd)

I definitely want to make sure that you know that we are definitely not defining anybody as who they are, which is why we put the “despite fulfilling these definitions, a person may not identify this way” which implies the opposite, that a person who does not fulfill a definition, may identify a certain way. In our “Glossary of words as we understand them”, where those definitions came from, we describe bisexuality this way: ” a person of any gender who is sexually or physically attracted to people of both binary genders and/or a person who personally identifies with this label”. We, as an organization, are very clear on all of our booths, and information handouts where this information is, that these are OUR definitions, and nobody elses, and that different people will identify different ways. // I just wanted to clear that up with you!

I do not understand how any of this makes what you said okay. “As you understand it” does not mean “how it is”. If you are going to define something, ESPECIALLY when the purpose of that definition is educational, you should make every effort to strip that definition of personal bias. It should not actively offend people who use that label in their daily life.  And here I am, an actual bisexual, telling you that this is wrong. It polices my identity and tells the world, and specifically young members of the queer community, I am something that I am not.

The reason why it is important to define bisexuality as being a preference for sameness and/or otherness, is because it’s not uncommon for bisexuals prefer different things from male-identified individuals than they do from female-identified individuals. However, your current definition implies that bisexuals are not attracted to anyone who is genderqueer — this is a matter of personal taste for each individual bisexual, and is DEFINITELY NOT part of the legitimate definition. Telling genderqueer individuals that a bisexual person will never find them attractive IS NOT OKAY. Telling Trans* individuals the same IS ALSO NOT OKAY.

I know your intention is good. I honestly feel like you’re trying to be helpful. But you just aren’t with this definition of bisexual. It’s hurtful. It perpetuates negative attitudes about bisexuality. Stop it. Just… stop it.